Simon Gordon.

Georgia is joined by Kay to discuss the case of Dr Simon Gordon is a former Melbourne-based gynaecologist and advanced laparoscopic surgeon who specialised in the treatment of endometriosis and pelvic pain. He practiced primarily at Epworth HealthCare and his private clinic, Endo Health, in East Melbourne. 

The controversy surrounding Dr Gordon stems from investigative reporting which detailed several serious allegations regards to medical misconduct.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Alright. Okay. Hi Georgia. How are you? I'm good. It's pouring rain outside. It is. It's a little wet at the minute.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

And you just public transported it all the way here. Yes. Thoughts and prayers. Thanks for you. And one text message and your response that I ignored. Very much apologize. That's fine. I did intend to get you from the bus stop and then I forgot about it. It's alright. Apologies. I'm an independent diva. Watching Donald Trump talk shit on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Oh, fuck's sake, what's the pumpkin on about now?

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Well, he's just saying more of the bullshit that he always says that they're obliterating Iran and all is well and the war's gonna come to an end very soon and they wanna make a deal. They wanna make a deal with the hands, like the hands. The hands. Meanwhile, Iran's sending out propaganda videos of them bombing the fucking Statue of Liberty that has a fucking cow's head with horns.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Go, go, go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And the children of all the fucking indigenous people looking up at the sky in admiration of the bomb flying over them to kill the US or some shit. Like it's sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Great. It's fucking funny. It's go off me. It's going off me given I fly to the US in 20-something days. Whoa. You're still going? Currently, the trio is not yet cancelled. The competition is not yet cancelled. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

No. Do not go. Where are you going? Florida.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Florida. Yes. Florida. Look if Disney World gets bombed while I'm there, at least I'll go out in the happiest place on earth. In style. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Doing the thing I love most. So theoretically happy, hopefully. Theoretically. Nah, I think you'll be right.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Um white girl I'm straight passing. I'll be alright. Are you though?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

The blue and pink hair gives it away a little. It won't be blue and pink when I go. Okay, what do what are you dying it to?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

It will be like dark green. Dark green.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

And with like yellow money pieces to make better Australian uniform. MAGA people will clock you. They will clock you. They're like, she's got different colour hair. She's a leftist. She's got piercing. Yeah. Yeah, look, I'm gonna get clocked. It's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Who cares? Make them uncomfortable, Kay.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Exactly. I'm not here to make people comfortable with me.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

If they don't like me, they can fuck off. Yeah, fuck right off. Um, is Florida a lefty town? Do you know? I don't know. It's a state. Yeah. There's lots of hurricanes and tornadoes in Florida, so there's also that.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

There is also that. Um lots of alligators, apparently. Not trying to scare you or anything. That's fine. Where advanced that happened? Yeah, how was it? Last year. Good. Last year was good. It's hot. It's hot there. Okay. Um, but I think being from Western Australia where it is quite hot in summer, especially compared to here, I did alright. A little moist, but yeah. Moist.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Moist. I fucking hate humidity. A little bit. I don't mind it. I'm just asking ChatGPT if Florida's red or blue. I'm pretty sure it's red. Pretty sure it's red. I dear, well. Thoughts and prayers. Thanks so much. Let's pull a fucking tarot card for Let's do it. Okay, it's a trip. I haven't actually got these out. We need the universe on our side currently, I feel. Although I don't think I'll be able to shuffle this deck, so. Thumbelina Tina is my thumb brace. It is currently a um silver peg looking contraption on my thumb because I sliced my fucking thumb open with a knife as I was sharpening it the other day, and I was doing it the complete wrong way. I should have been doing it away from me, apparently, but I wasn't. I went straight towards.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I mean, that's like a natural movement.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

That's not so much like an and I was trying to think of the way that I saw my mum's partner do it when he gave me the fucking sharpener. I swear he did it towards himself, but maybe he didn't.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I don't know. I'm marbly offended that you have an ED nurse friend and you didn't even text me. I was, yeah. Hey, I saw the videos, you handled it yourself. I did. I did. Independent diva, you sorted yourself.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

I am qualified in registered nursing. You are surgical, to be exact. Will you be renewing that in May? Yeah. Yeah. I just yeah, I I will be, yeah. Because I don't have any fucking alternative at the minute until I finish my MA course. Which is currently going, still doing it. Still going? Still painting my own face. Yes, but I the ADHD is kicking in and I'm getting a bit bored. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and I knew that would happen, so I just have to fucking push through and stick to it, and then I'll be right. How long have you got left? It's a six-month course, and I've done like two modules. Okay. I don't know how many there are, so I'm just plodding along. I need to get back into it. Alright, we've got the Knight of Pentacles manifestation. I don't know what that means. I'll open my little guide here after my very shitty shuffle. Okay, meaning practicality, hard work, and commitment. The Knight of Pentacles indicates both fulfilment and overcoming difficulties. As an individual, he is stoic, reliable, and helpful. As an energy, this is a time of responsibility and hard work that will by rights lead to the successful conclusion of a project. Hey! Alright! That kind of works. That actually really works. It urges you to keep doing what you're doing. Oh well, that's a good sign. That means you're supposed to go. Excellent. Hopefully. Great. Tried and true methods are favoured. Now is not the time to strike out in an entirely new direction. Still plan to. Day on the path.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

There is a recognition of responsibility. Because you're the fucking coach, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

No.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Oh, I thought you were. I am a coach, I'm not a coach. Okay. Okay. Think hard work, responsibility, and continued perseverance. Alright, we are manifesting a win.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah. I've got two teams, so I've got two chances.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Two times wins. The other thing we're manifesting is the worst segue in the whole world.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

But anyways. I'm excited. I can't believe I forgot until this morning to be like, wait, do I need to prepare?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

I was going to play a joke on you actually, and then you asked, and I was like, ah, fuck. I was gonna be like, so what have you got for us today, guy? And just watch you squirm for a little bit. And I ruined it. You did. So I already felt bad because then you would actually prepare something, I know. You'd do the full ADHD cram session, just like smash something. With my own face.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I've got time.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

I've got 40 minutes, it's fine. Righto, well, over the next few episodes, we're heading back into familiar territory. The kind of stories that make you double check your own doctor's name before you sit down. Because as much as we want to believe the people treating us as safe, competent, and ethical, that's not always the reality, unfortunately. So I think I said I'm joined by Kay, but if I didn't, hello! She's an ED nurse, an occasional voice of reason and chaos. As we unpack some of the more unsettling cases to come out of the healthcare system in this new series, we're focusing on Melbourne and looking at the cases that slipped through the cracks, the doctors who were trusted, respected, and in some cases still practicing. While series allegations were building behind the scenes. These involve criminal charges, malpractice, and decisions that had very real consequences for patients. This series isn't about fear-mongering, it's about awareness. Because when systems fail, it's the patients who pay the price. Hey.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Correct. And I think it's good for everyone to be aware of what's going on in the health industry that we're living in, working in, existing in, like experiencing things.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

This one is a request from one of our listeners, Jeff. Okay. And she requested this a few months back. So sorry it took forever. But thanks, Jess. Yes, thank you very much, Jeff. So let's get into it. So the God complex. Some people call it confidence, others call it brilliance, but in medicine there's a line where confidence stops being protective and starts becoming dangerous. They call it the God complex, not because these doctors think they're gods in some dramatic, obvious way, but because over time they start to believe that they are the final authority. I've seen that many a time.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Every year the new interns rotated.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Every yeah. The one who knows best, the one who doesn't need to be questioned. And in surgery, that belief carries so much weight, and I see it so often. Because when you're the person holding the scalpel, people typically don't argue with you unless they're on your level. They trust you, they defer to you, they assume that every decision you make is grounded in evidence, in necessity and in the patient's best interest and the teams, right? Most of the time the trust is deserved, but when it isn't, and confidence turns into certainty and certainty into control, that's when the dynamic shifts. Um not all at once, but in subtle ways that are easy to miss until you start looking more closely. And in my experience, once you see it, you can't unsee it. A toxic culture. In the operating room, after we perform a surgery as a team, the surgeon is often asked for what is known as an MBS Medicare benefits schedule number. Have you ever heard of that? Rings a bell. Yeah, see, I hear it every single day. What's the MBS numbers? Before the surgeon runs out of the fucking room. But an MBS number is a specific item code used to identify a particular medical or surgical procedure, which determines how much Medicare will imburse you for that particular surgery. It's basically the price tag code for a procedure in the Australian healthcare system. Medicare then uses that number to decide how much money gets paid back to the patient or provider. Now, why am I even fucking talking about numbers? Because um MBS item 35641 is the code for severe endometriosis laparoscopic resection. What was it? 35461? 35641. 641. So close. So keep that in mind for a point I'm gonna make later, but for right now, we're going to talk about Dr. Simon Gordon. Do you know that name? I've heard it. Definitely. He's been in the media hugely for the past year. He's been practicing for years. He's a very well-known gynecologist. So for over two decades, Gordon worked as a Melbourne-based gynecologist specializing in lap or keyhole surgery for endometriosis. He operated through Epworth Private Hospital and his private clinic, Endo Health. And according to reporting by the ABC, he treated more than 13,000 patients since the late 1990s. Okay. So that's a lot. Detailed records of his early education are not widely published. His scope of practice and his registration with ARPRA indicates he had to have completed training in obstetrics and gynecology and develop a sub-specialty focused in advanced lab surgery.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Essentially, he's qualified, we think.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Does it not say on APRA? Because I know if you look it up, it should say where they I haven't really looked at.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I can't look it up because he's no longer registered. Um but yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Not sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Because it definitely says your qualification. Yeah, because that's not where you studied.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

When I look myself up, it says where I've studied, which uni I went to, when I finished, and my first year registration and where I registered, so Melbourne. Okay. I don't know if like deregistered people are listed though.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I found him on LinkedIn. Let's have a look.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

What does this LinkedIn say?

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Okay, there we go. Leading specialist in advanced lap surgery for endometriosis, complex cyst pathology and chronic pelvic pain. University of Auckland. I found it, guys. University of Auckland, New Zealand. He was a fellow of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetrics and Ginee and a member of the Ages, which is the Australian Gynecological Endoscopy and Surgical Society. So there you go. He studied between 1983 and 1989. Anyway, back to the story.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Anyway, yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

No, you're good. Um within the patient community, particularly among those with endometriosis, he developed a reputation as a high volume surgeon, often seeing patients who had not found relief anywhere else. That reputation, combined with the volume of patients he treated, is what makes the subsequent allegations and investigations particularly significant because this wasn't an unknown practitioner operate operating on the margins of the system. This was an established specialist working within major private hospitals with a large patient base and a long-standing career and reputation. So Dorama.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah. And he'd have a lot of people that really respected him and liked him for what they did for him for them. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

That's right. He'd probably have glowing reviews as well as um the complaints that have been made against him.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Also, it's like pouring rain, so sorry if you can hear it.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Melbourne weather really do be Melbourne weathering today.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Oh God, it so is. So before we get further into this case, we need to talk a little bit about endometriosis in case we have any non-medical listeners. Because understanding what it is and how it's supposed to be diagnosed and treated is key to understanding why these allegations are so serious. Endo is a chronic condition where tissue similar to the lining of the uterus grows outside of it, commonly on the ovaries, flepian tubes, and other structures within the pelvis. It can cause a range of symptoms, including severe pelvic pain, painful periods, pain during sex, fatigue, and in some cases infertility and bowel issues. It's also a condition that's notoriously difficult to diagnose. There's no simple blood test for endo. Imaging like ultrasounds or MRIs can sometimes suggest endo, but they don't always pick it up, especially in milder cases. The gold standard for diagnosis has traditionally been lap surgery, where a camera is inserted into the abdomen to directly visualize any lesions or adhesions. During that procedure, surgeons may remove a biopsy of tissue, which is then sent for histopathological analysis. That's a big word for Elmo. To confirm whether it's actually endome. And that part is critical because while surgeons can suspect endometriosis based on symptoms, the diagnosis is ideally confirmed by pathology and what they say in the surgery. But the diagnosis is ideally confirmed by pathology results, meaning the tissue under the microscope shows features consistent with endometriosis. Does that make sense? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

And from what I've heard, it can take seven to ten years for a woman to get a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yes. Yep. It can. Yes. We're ignored, but we touch on that.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

No, you're good. No, no, no, no. Please jump in. Treatment varies depending on severity and patient goals, obviously. For many patients, first line treatment is conservative things like pain management, hormonal therapy, such as the oral contraceptive pill, and a hormonal IUD. Can I just say contraceptive pill really does work for some people? Like it's really quite helpful. And so it really is the first line that you go to. But um, if you've got severe endo, it's not gonna No.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

And then if you're at a point where life you're also then trying to get pregnant, can't really be on the pill.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah. And then you still suffer with all your symptoms. Correct. Yes. They come back tenfold.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

So and as you age, they get worse and worse. Because I think that the disease advances, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Like yeah, like they and the adhesions grow back, so you can still have an up and have it all taken out. Yes. And they just grow back. That's it. Yeah. Grow back like a fungus and spread everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, pretty much. Fungus. Sorry. Surgery is usually considered when symptoms are severe. Other treatments haven't worked, or fertility is a concern. Yeah. Even then, the aim of surgery is typically to remove visible endometriosis while preserving as much normal anatomy as possible. But you can imagine the damage that surgery would even do. Um, and often adhesions then form around the scars of surgery. Radical procedures like removing ovaries or the uterus are generally reserved for very specific cases, often when other treatments have failed and after careful discussion about long-term consequences, including infertility and early menopause. And that's where informed consent becomes essential. Patients should understand what is being removed, why it's being removed, what the risks are, and what the long-term outcomes could be. Because once organs like the ovaries or uterus are removed, that shit's permanent. Yeah. Like there's no going back after that.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

You could freeze your eggs, but that needs to be decided. And done beforehand. Yeah. Um, but then there is if you've got no uterus, no womb, no baby. No. No baby in you at least. Yes. Adoption.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Or surrogacy. So when you hear cases where patients were told that they have had severe endometriosis, underwent multiple surgeries, and then pathology didn't support the diagnosis, that's just not a difference of opinion. That's where serious clinical and ethical questions start to arise, and that's what happened in this case. So, according to multiple ABC News investigations, including a 2026 Four Corners report, concerns about Gordon ro uh Simon Gordon's practice began to build over several years, roughly between 2020 and 2025. These concerns weren't isolated. Complaints were reportedly made by patients, other gynecologists, and hospital staff, and were directed to Epworth Hospital Management, the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency, or APRA, and the Victorian Healthcare Complaints Commission. These concerns centered around a pattern which was patients being diagnosed with severe endo, undergoing surgical treatment, and then experiencing outcomes that didn't align with that diagnosis. One of these patients was Mary Spanos. According to ABC News, Mary underwent surgery with Gordon in 2020 and was told she had severe endometriosis that had to be removed. Mary went to see Simon Gordon and she said that he essentially bad-mouthed her previous surgeon and told Mary that the previous surgeon hadn't got all the endo. Seen that before. Doctors bag like bagging doctors, nurses bagging nurses, doctors begging nurses, nurses bagged doctors. We all bag each other.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Even I'm guilty of it sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, everyone's guilty of it. She came out of the surgery and she said that she felt in much more pain after the surgery than she did before. Okay, well, you've just had surgery.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, you're gonna have some pain. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

She didn't feel very validated by Simon Gordon, as we just invalidated her.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

He doesn't sound like he's gonna be a very validating person. God, complex surgeons typically aren't. No. But you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

My gynecologist was. That's good. She was a woman, though.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yes. We'll let the silence speak for itself. Anyway. She said that she felt he was being dismissive of her pain, and that made Mary quite angry. And I would, yeah. I would feel the same way.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

She requested her histopathology, and the histopathology showed no sign of endometriosis. There were five separate pieces of tissue that had been sent off to pathology, and all of them came back saying no endo present at all. Interesting. And his handwriting was right next to it saying nil, nil endo. So he knew. He knew. Her case was reviewed by Professor Theory. I can't pronounce this. I can't. It's French. Theory Van Kaley, a senior gynecologist who told the ABC that the surgery appeared unnecessary and caused more harm than benefits. So when all of these complaints started coming out, they then asked the patients for their medical records and reviewed them and then asked other senior gynecologists and experts. And this guy's considered to be the father of gynecology. Theory vancus.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

So not only is this poor woman had to endure surgery, she's done it in the private sector. So either she's paid out of pocket or her health insurance is paid. Yeah. And health insurance probably didn't cover all of it because you know health insurance feel about gynecological procedures. Correct. How do they feel? I don't know this. Oh, some this is probably generalizing a little bit, but depending on your cover. Mm-hmm. Gynacolog like and depending on what it is, it's elective.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Ah, okay. If you don't have elective cover. Yes. Especially in America, I'm sure. Yeah, probably. It's probably slightly better in Australia, but ours are usually decent-ish. And Mary wasn't alone. Another patient who was known as Courtney Payton also featured in ABC reports. By the age of 25, she'd undergone seven surgeries under Gordon's care, including the removal of both ovaries and uterus.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, so Courtney is now infertile for um supposed severe endo. And she didn't know this until she was requested her pathology by ABC. So she thought she still had a uterus ovaries? No, she knew that she that had been removed. She didn't know she did not have endo. Oh. Right? She didn't find out until she had her reports that she didn't have endometriosis on the samples for the operation again and again and again. Everyone but one. There was only one operation, which was her second, in which there was a sort of microscopic tiny amount consistent with endo, but not severe endo, for which she had surgeries and she had organs removed. And it certainly wasn't in any of the others. Her materials were sent to the professor as well, and he told her that the surgery was unnecessary, and he felt sickened that it happened because she's now infertile.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

She had seven surgeries for something that didn't need operating ones. And as at 25, she's now infertile. I know and can never carry a child.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

She later said that the opportunity to have kids had been taken away from her.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Then there was Abby Lewis. In 2024, at just 21 years old, Abby was scheduled for surgery to remove an ovary. But as reported by the ABC, a fertility specialist advised that the procedure was not necessary. Abby chose to not go ahead with the surgery. Good honour.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Smart decision a 21 year old could make.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

She later discovered that, like other patients, her pathology did not show. She has since gone on to become pregnant, and we are happy for her.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

We are.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Congrats, Abby. As more cases were reviewed, other doctors began speaking publicly as well. Synecologists, and these names, I'm so very sorry, including Dr. Shamitha Cuthurising and Professor Theory Van Keel, reviewed patient cases and raised concerns about whether surgeries were clinically justified. They described outcomes that, in their view, caused harm rather than benefit. Some clinicians told the ABC that concerns about Gordon's practice had become an open secret within parts of the medical community. Because people clock stuff on the job.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Like there would have been like anesthetis and things that went mm-mm.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

That's weird.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

That was a strange move. Don't really understand that. Clinical decision.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah. What is it the Scrub Scout that's in there holding the tools and passing stuff? Yeah. I don't know. Yes, Scrub Scouts would have seen things and be like, I don't see endo. That's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

What is this? What's this man doing?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, from what I've seen, Endo just to my eye, looks like normal flesh, but it must look different to the uterine, the the tissue um separate from the uterine lining. Like I don't know. I don't know. Like from the bits that I've seen pulled out, it looks like any other bit. It's just like extra that shouldn't be there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean to a surgeon, they have to identify it to put it, pull it out.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And you'd think with all their years of training and knowledge that they would know what it looks like and they know they're pulling out the right thing. So like homeboy knows what he's doing. I don't know. I'm just an ED nurse. Yeah. No, I'm not supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I'm a perioperative nurse, but still, I'm not trained in the different textures and colours of flesh. I just do the anesthetics, okay?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Don't come from the outside, it's not supposed to be, refer it somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

And this is where the case becomes bigger than just one practitioner. Because according to these reports, complaints were being made over a period of years to multiple levels of the healthcare team, and yet the surgery is continued. That's the most frustrating thing I find with these cases.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Were Epworth allowing him to continue operating while these complaints were coming in? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yes. Interesting. Yes. Interesting. I mean, it's probably nuanced. Like it's probably a lot more to it than we really think.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

They can't just be like, oh, there's a complaint, you're not allowed to operate anymore. That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah. ABC reporting states that Epworth Private Hospital became aware that Four Corners was investigating Gordon's practice. Within days, he was asked to go on leave. And shortly after he retired from the practice. Of course he did. Yes. Then in February 2026, the investigation became public. The ABC Four Corners program aired allegations that Gordon had performed surgeries for severe endo in cases where pathology did not support that diagnosis. The programme also raised concerns about the removal of productive organs, reproductive organs in young women and the long-term consequences, including fertility and chronic pain, and that show was called God Complex. Following the broadcast, as reported by the news, the Victorian Premier Jacinta Allen referred to the matter, referred the matter to police. Yeah, stating that if unnecessary surgeries had been performed, it could constitute criminal conduct. The Federal Health Minister also publicly described the allegations as sickening. And that's why we need investigative reporters, ladies and gentlemen. Absolutely. I said that in the last case too. But it's true. Like it doesn't get done until there's a massive hoo-ha about it.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Correct. And could he not almost be done for assault? Like I know he technically gets informed consent. Yes. But that informed consent is kind of coerced because he's telling them they have something they don't. Yes. And then taking out their organs or performing surgery on them. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Which essentially essentially means legalities of assault, but it feels like assault. Yeah, it feels that way.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

To convince them to let you do an invasive surgical procedure that is hasn't got any basis.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

I think Paolo Macchiarini was. Yeah, he was, yeah. He was charged with assault. Yeah. Yeah. Um for his fucking shit trachea. Oh God. Bits of plastic that they just shoved in there and let rot inside them anyway. Check out that episode if you want context. Um anyway, at the same time, Medicare began reviewing billing practices linked to endo procedures, the MBS codes, um, particularly the use of item numbers for severe cases. By early 2026, the scale of the situation was becoming clearer. According to reporting, more than 100 women had come forward. 100 women.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

That is crazy. Multiple law firms began investigating um potential legal action, and at least one firm reported that over 80 patients had contacted them regarding possible claims.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Oh my god, you'd be shit in your pants. Yeah. The Australia so APRA also launched a large scale investigation requesting access to thousands of patient records. Gordon has since surrendered his medical license and registration or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

I mean he's like, I've retired, I don't need it anymore. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah. It's probably his mentality. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

The the question is, why the f how the fuck did he go on for this long? Like if he is guilty of these things, obviously caveat. He's not he admits to no wrongdoing. Of course he doesn't. There has been no final legal findings at this stage, and Gordon denies any wrongdoing according to reporting. He maintains that his treatment decisions were made in an effort to improve patient quality of life. How? Um this was according to cited from the hospital, the busiest lap surgeon at Epworth, which is the largest private hospital in Victoria. Yes. He was renowned on social media and he was seen as a sort of guru. He was like So his ego was like, oh fucking here. Yeah, most likely Kate. Simon Gordon refused an interview with Four Corners. Of course he did. Yeah. Of course he did. He did release a statement which said essentially what I've already said that he only ever did these surgeries if it was necessary to alleviate women's pain. His view is that endometeosis has been ignored for a long time and women felt their suffering wasn't validated, and he was seeking to validate the suffering. He's using a correct fact. Yes. If he is guilty of this. He's using a um a correct fact to justify his incorrect actions. Yes, it's full emotional manipulation there. Correct. Yes. But you know, at what point does validating suffering tip over into something that's really concerning? Like certainly the federal health minister Mark Butler feels that. He said, quote, it goes without saying that these women have been let down by the system, and really our job now is to determine how we can ensure this doesn't happen again, and how, if these allegations are proven, this person is brought to justice.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

I will say, like, once the Four Corners investigation came out, like everyone did their bit. Like the Medicare, APRA, the Health Minister, Jacinta Allen, like it just took it in the public eye for them to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Which they shouldn't have to.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Hey, if that's what we need to get shit happening, then put everything in the public eye.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, I guess. But also, I wonder, like, how did Four Corners get away with not being like sued for defamation? Because obviously this has impacted his career. He was forced to resign. He may very well not have, if this wasn't bought like into the public eye.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I mean, is he like, is there a private suit for defamation going on in the background? Could be. It could be. Or it could be that he knows he's not going to win a defamation suit because he knows he's guilty. Yeah. Like, I mean, the investigation has pretty much shown that there were people that didn't need endosurgery that had endosurgery.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, that's evidence. Taken out organs. Yeah. Like, yes, that is defaming him. Yes. But it's accurate.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah. Yeah. True, true, true, true. Can't argue with those facts. I know. It's just like rich white man man. Yes. They love to sue. Is he a white man? Yes. Yes. Old as well. If these allegations are proven, this person needs to be brought to justice, he says. Yes. And that being said, remember the MBS numbers I mentioned at the start? Yes. I did a little sleuthing. Um, so the MBS item number, 35641, is the number for surgery for severe stage four or five endo, right? Is five one V in Roman numerals? Uh no. Is it four? Okay, stage three and four in endometriosis. Why did I use Roman numerals anymore? It's 2026. Right, just use for fuck's sakes. Yeah. Might. Just use numbers we can read. Anyway, this means deep infiltrating disease, often involving bowel, bladder, uterus. Yeah. You know, floating tubes and all that. They are technically complex, longer operations, usually confirmed with imaging and intra-operative findings like specimens. It's not meant for mild or routine endo, that code. There's other codes for that. And it's a cheaper operation. Do you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Because it would probably take less resources, it would be shorter. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yep. Less testing. Yep. From the official Medicare benefits schedule, the schedule fee for$35641 is$1,449.70. So that's the price of the surgery. Medicare pays 75%. So per surgery, Medicare contributes$1,087. That is the baseline payment tied to that MBS number, right? That sets the standard of pricing that the surgeon sets. Yes. So they go, what's the MBS number? I need to price around there. Yes. But some surgeons, it's not necessarily what the surgeon earns. Some surgeons charge above and beyond that MBS fee and sort of class it as a minimum. This certain man does. Yes, he does. He does. Yes. If he charged only the MBS fee or around there, like the total fee would be$1,449. Medicare pays a grand of that. Patient pays around$360 for the surgery. And the surgeon earns$1,400 in total, right? Yes. If he charged above the MBS fee, which is the most likely outcome in private hospitals, a lot of them do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

This is where things change a lot. A realistic private hospital scenario removing severe endo would result in a surgeon fee of around$5,000 to$15,000.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

It varies massively, but old mate probably charges a$15,000 range because he's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

So Medicare still pays a grand of that, but then they're left with the rest. Yes. You know what I mean? So either paying out of pocket or not. He can bump it up a lot. This means the surgeon could often receive several thousand dollars per case. So essentially billing that item equals higher rebate, which the surgeon uses as a justification to bump up the fees. And he did that. Of course he did. Mm-hmm. For every one of these cases.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

So he was earning like, you know, 10 grand, say, per case. And he probably operates a couple of days a week. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

I wonder, actually, I might see if there's an available payment. What did Mary pay ChatGPT? ChatGPT tell us. One patient reported paying$13,500 for a simple lap surgery. This included surgeon fees and etherist fees, hospital stay. She had to borrow money. Yeah. Another patient underwent seven surgeries. She's paid a total of$32,000 in total.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Wow. For seven surgeries and to have her organs removed that she could have kept. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

So thousands of dollars. So we can assume that he was doing that.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah. And if he's obviously also charging clinic fees and then operating, you know, maybe having two days or three days of surgical list. Man's rolling in it.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah. Yeah. He's off, he's off retired somewhere on a beach enjoying weak. Has he fled the country? I think so. Good question, Kay. Sorry. No, you're good. Where is Simon Gordon now? Surely he's fled the country.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

They often do. I wouldn't lie, I would. Not that I'm scamming scamming patients. I work in the public health system. I ain't scamming nobody. Barely getting paid. It's publicly unknown and not disclosed.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

He's fled the country. He's stepped out of public view. Look fair. Yeah. I would too if I was under scrutiny. Yes, I would also. I would disappear under a rock and never return. Endometriosis exists within a healthcare system that has historically struggled to take women's pains seriously, and this is what I was getting at before. Endometriosis affects around one in nine women, and yet on average it still takes years to be diagnosed. Not just because it's complex, but because for a long time the symptoms have been normalized, dismissed, and explained away.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

The amount of people that well, like I've heard like having severe pain or period is actually not normal. No. And severe bleeding as well. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy bleeding bleeding. We are programmed and told like this is normal, this is fine, it's just heavy. Yeah, is what having a uterus is. And that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Just get a more adsorbent pad, you know, change the champ on more often. And it's like, dude, I'm hemorrhaging at night.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Like I literally cannot get through the night without bleeding into my bed. When I was diagnosed with my I had a 10 centimetre fibroid that I had taken out a couple of years ago, I had an open myomectomy because they were concerned it was turning cancerous. Yeah, back in 2021, so height of COVID. Who did it? I had done the women's. Oh, beautiful. With a lovely female gynecologist. Period. Yeah. She was a diva. Um, we like her a lot. Um, but yeah, like trying to get diagnosed with that in the public system and just being told, like they found it eventually, because I had severe, severe lower abdo pain. I had awful periods for years. Um, and I have a history of it. So I'm like, yeah, but like, you know, 80% of women have fibroids and they don't affect them. I was like, cool. Mine's affecting me. And so by the time they found it, they were like, okay, this is probably a problem. And I was going through like, I was at a different hospital, and they're like, we're gonna refer you to the royal women's, which, if you don't live in Melbourne, is a basically female obstetrics like maternity hospital in the city. And like, we're gonna refer you there. We're gonna discharge you now from this hospital. And I was like, okay, but you haven't actually sorted my pain. Yeah, hello, I heard the pain is still here. I had actually got to a point where like they the doctors came in, they're like, Is there something going on at home? Why don't you want to go home? And then turned it into my mental health. I was like, there is nothing going at home, I'm not actually like crazy. Me and my cat, and I want to get home to my cat, my very elderly sick cat that I wanted to get home to. But I have a giant, giant tumour in my uterus that is causing me so much pain and discomfort. You've not actually fixed my pain. I'm not eating great because I couldn't stomach food, and they're like, but we saw you eating. I was like, Yeah, because I'm fucking hungry. I'm dying of starvation. But I can't eat because this pain is so bad. I'm just like I'm balling my eyes out and they're like, So what's going at home? Why don't you want to go home? Like, it's a psych review, and I'm like, I don't need a psych review, I need you to fix my pain. They're literally- Yes, you're referring me to the people that are gonna help me. Great, in the meantime, until I get that appointment, because also we're going through the public health system during COVID. And they were like, off you go.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Do you feel I'm mentally unwell? Because I do right now. Pandemic. I'm depressed. Correct. Um, they're literally judging you by your coloured hair. I swear to god, it happens. It happens. Yeah. Don't expect to get any medical treatment in the Americas. No. I don't plan to need it, to be honest. I'm going avoid American. You're literally doing cheerleading. How many people fucking break themselves doing that sport?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

I was so sick last time. Like, I'm pretty confident I had pneumonia or something. I was hacking up along, just like taking short, shallow breaths. So something in the air. Something in the air. And the program lead of my team was like, I will pay for you to go to an urgent care or something, and like you can pay me back when your health insurance gives you back money. And I was like, I'm not going to a health system in the States. No, I'm not doing it. I will tough this out myself. I know enough about my health and like mental pains and pneumonia. Do you want to go to fucking insane?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yes. When I went to um LA, I got tonsillitis, and this is something that I suffer with a lot, right? And I spoke about this on the Epstein episode with Beck, because we both went together. And I got really awful tonsillitis, and I got it to the point where I was really suffering in severe agony. So I took myself at like 2 a.m. or whatever. Oh no, I took myself, I felt it coming on firstly, right? And I took myself to an urgent care. And it was kind of like a clinic. Yep. Like just a doctor's office. Yeah. But it was called, you know, urgent care. And I saw this doctor and he was like closing up shop or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, please, like. No, this was in the AVO, but he um was like, look, I can give you um a shot of penicillin in your ass right now, or I can you can come back to my place and I can lance your tonsil for you because it is home. Yes, like a shitty fucking knot. I was like, um, no, no, no, thank you. That's how you get the so much, but no, I don't want to come to your house. Negative. Like, that's so strange. I'm like, is that the way that's it? You're sitting here thinking, I was like, is this literally what's done here? Like, do they do back alley shit? Because I can see that as a thing as well. Yeah, probably. Because he was like, he said, if you come to back to my place, I've got all the surgical stuff there. I used to be an ED physician or whatever, and I've lanced many a tonsil, I've got all the stuff there, and I won't charge you as much as they will at the hospital. So I wonder. I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Because then he would also pocket all of that.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yes, he would. So he would benefit, I would benefit, except if he's a fucking serial killer, then I would be dead. So I said no.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

No, I fucked off. I got spooked.

unknown 40:16

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Valid. Valid. Actually, I think he gave me some oral penicillin, but that did fuck all because I've been getting tonsillitis since I was fucking 13.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

So have you thought about having your tonsils removed?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Yes. No one will do it. I just haven't done it. That's fair. I'm scared. I know exactly what the recovery is like in adults. And it is not nice, and I do not want a tonsillectomy bleed. We get so much in the back of my throat because I feel like I will vomit and then I will make it worse, and then I will get an infection, and I know that's what's gonna happen to me. I don't know, but I know. We don't know, no? Yeah, yeah, we don't know, no. Anyways, moving on. Severe pain becomes just bad periods. Chronic symptoms become stress or hormones. It's just hormones. You know what? It probably is my hormones because go and psychopanatole. It is my hormones, you fuck. Doesn't mean that it's not legitimate. Correct. Um, anyway, so the patients wait, they push to be seen, they advocate for themselves, they go from doctor to doctor trying to be heard until eventually they find someone who does not dismiss them, someone who listens, someone who validates.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

And they're so exhausted from going through all of that bullshit that they're like, oh my god, finally.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

They're burnt out. Um, someone who finally gives them an answer. And in that moment, that trust carries so much weight and it's built on years of not being believed. You know what I mean? You're just so desperate. So when that doctor says this is severe or this needs surgery, patients are gonna jump on that. Correct. It's finally someone is listening to them. Finally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

And then they, because they're so exhausted, don't ask all the right questions or get all the facts or off to do the research. Correct. Yeah. Like if you don't have any medical knowledge and a medical person tells you, hey, you have a severe endometriosis and you need a surgery, and I'm gonna book you in in the next sort of month, they're gonna be like, oh my god, finally, an answer to my questions, like my pain and like, oh my gosh, we're gonna get it fixed.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

I wasn't saying someone's believing me finally. Yes. Which is a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

It's validating because women aren't often believed, and if when it's a man, correct validating. Anyway, when trust is built on relief and validation rather than clear, consistent evidence, the line between necessary treatment and unnecessary intervention can become blurred. Not because patients are naive, but because they've been conditioned to fight so hard to be taken seriously. They don't expect to have to question it, and that's the part that stays with you. Not just because of what happened, but how a system that can dismiss women for years can also f fail them in entirely different ways once it finally listens. You know what I mean? It's failed in all aspects. Patient safety is never just one person, it's a team. Correct. And this is the main takeaway I want you to take today, guys. If you're on a fucking team in healthcare, a group of qualified, capable people who are supposed to feel comfortable enough to speak up, question, clarify, and challenge. But that only works when the environment allows it. When a surgeon carries that kind of unchecked authority, when confidence tips into ego, it changes the entire dynamic of the team. Yes. You feel it almost immediately. The hesitation before someone speaks, the side eyes between the staff when they say something a bit off, the way questions get softened or not asked at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yes. Sorry. You're not pre-syncable again, are you?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

No. I might no. Do you have any use medicine to create? I'm fine, I'm fine. Because no, I don't even know why what that was. Anyway, because no one wants to be that person, the one who slows things down, who gets shut down, or the Who gets remembered not in a good way. You know, that whole group dynamic, that psychological fucking phenomenon where you don't want to be that guy.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

No.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

So instead, people adapt. They stay quiet, they double check things silently instead of out loud. They convince themselves that they must know what they're doing. The other person that is. Yes. It's called authority bias, reinforced by fear and group conformity. And it is how a toxic culture is formed. Not through one big moment, but through hundreds of small ones, where speaking up feels just a little bit harder than staying quiet. But in healthcare, silence is dangerous, obviously. The system is designed with the understanding that humans make mistakes. That's why we have timeouts, checklists, counts, cross-checks, protocols, policies and procedures. Correct. They only work if everyone participates though. Yes. The moment one person becomes unchallengeable, those safeguards start to weaken.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Yes. The Swiss cheese. Mm-hmm. You know? Holes for things to slide through. And if those holes line up in just the right order, something gets missed.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

A misstep doesn't get called out. A discrepancy gets second guessed instead of voiced. A gut feeling gets ignored. And sometimes nothing happens, but sometimes it does. And when it does, people look back and realize someone noticed, someone hesitated, and someone almost spoke up. That's the real danger of a god complex in medicine. It erodes the very thing that keeps patients safe. A team that feels empowered to speak. Because the safest operating theatres aren't the ones with the most confident surgeon. They're the ones where everyone feels safe enough to say, wait. Yes. The end.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

My voice gave out at the very end. Hey, at least you made it to the end. I made it to the end. But no, yeah, a situation where someone doesn't feel safe to say something is more dangerous than having the most experienced person in the room.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

100%. Yeah. And and that's something that I've lived through. Like that the surgeons, I don't know what it's like really on the ward. I've only ever done placements and stuff. And I can understand doctors can be, in general, um, intimidating to approach. I found that in my placement in ED, they were less intimidating to approach. They were more willing to work as a team to discuss things, to hash things out, and to take your suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

But it really depends on the environment.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

It does. And I think that's one thing I'm grateful for where I work is that we do have that. It's very much a team dynamic. We're a team working together to look after our patients. It's not I'm a doctor and you're a nurse. Some of the new interns when they come down there a little bit like that. It doesn't take us long to like rope them in a little bit. This is the the way we do things here. Correct. Yeah. And that's a good culture. It is good. And that's I'm like one of the reasons why, even though I do do sort of a little bit of agency nursing and I've sort of looked at branching out a little bit, I'm like, I don't think I'll like, unless I leave Melbourne or I move very far away from where I work currently, I don't think I'm going to leave unless something was to happen. Because I like the culture that we have and the dynamic and that the doctors, even the senior, most senior consultants that obviously when I was a grad, I was a little bit scared of, but now I like I know I can go to them and ask a dumb girl question or be like, why are we doing this? And so many of them will educate and explain. Or if I say, hey, I don't think that's the right approach, they'll be like, Great, let's talk about it. And we have that safe, like comfortable work environment where we can do that, or if something's happening, we can be like, stop. We can do a stop and step back and check and check in with everybody.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

And like I had an incident the other night where Yes, I was going to ask because she mentioned when she came in that she had two nights after night shift when she came home crying and the cat comforted her.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah, my cat, she's very sweet. She's arsehole, but she's sweet when she wants to be.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

It's not uncommon in healthcare to have those days.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

No, and like, and it was just two awful nights in a row. Um, and I think that was what compounded everything, but like the second night we had, you know, uh was working in pediatrics and we had, you know. A small patient. Uh not quite so small, teenager, but you know, still a small patient. Um, and you know, had a medical event and we were working the medical event, and obviously, you know, we press the staff assist, all the staff come running in. We had one of our A nums jump in and take over and take control, which is great. We need a team leader in those situations. Yes. But she's a very polarizing personality.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Um, and the medical episode in its like it didn't bother me at all. Like it was a long one, it took a while. This patient went to recus, that itself didn't bother me. It was the how I was treated during the scenario that happened that like affected me.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Um, but we had one of the other critical care nurses who came in and she checked on me, and I think she could tell I wasn't okay. Yes. And she said to me, like, are you going okay? And she's like, that was, you know, a pretty awful situation. I was like, the situation, like the medical episode was fine, it was everything else. Yep. And she offered me a moment to go step outside. It's like, no, no, I'm good. I'm just gonna keep running my notes on this, on this other patient. And then she just kind of looked at me in a way and she's like, Do you need a moment? And I just like whirled up and I was like, actually, you know what? I'm gonna just step outside for a minute. She's like, You go outside. And so she came and took over my patients, my area for a little bit. The other nurse that I was working with was also very understanding, and like they let me go outside and have my little cry. I came back in, she's like, You good? And I was like, I'm good. She's like, Do you want to have a chat later? And I was like, No, no, I think I'm okay. No, and then like another doctor came in, we'll talk about some stuff, and like she was like, You keep looking at me, like, are you good? And I was like, actually, maybe we will have that debrief later. And we actually we never got there, bless her. She tried, like, shit just happened that night. It was there was stuff happened everywhere that night. Yeah, and then when we went to leave at the end of our shift, there was more stuff happening. Everyone was done. Um, and they weren't, they were busy, they were not in a place to have a debrief right there in that moment. My favourite educator had come on, I was like, Oh my god, let me have a chat with her. She was then also dealing with this other medical episode. So much happening. So much happening. I just gave that note a note and I was like, I'm gonna don't worry about me. Like, I don't want you to go home and like stress and panic about me. Like, I'm good, I'm over it. I went home, I slept, I haven't worked since. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

It's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Probably a good thing. I've had a couple of days off. I've got a bonkers weekend this weekend with training for Team Australia, yes, and then a couple more days off, and then I'm working over Easter. So Easter and my book.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

I live on the 17th of April. Okay. So um that was a lot to take in. That was, sorry. But just I feel like you just spoke for a hundred miles an hour. Probably. But I definitely dad who's gonna tell me to speak too fast again. My dad's just like she speaks too fast.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

I do. My best friend and I we send voice messages back and forth to each other, and sometimes I will listen to it to make sure she can hear me, like if maybe not walking or something. Yeah. And I'm like, I talk so fucking fast.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

You do, your brain goes fast, that's why. And that's a good thing. It does. So, um, question Yes, in this um medical event, yes, um, did you find that you were a bit scattered? I was.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Like I went from knowing what I needed to do to everyone came in and almost like, and I don't think this nurse meant this. I genuinely don't think she meant to, but it was kind of like a then the talking over me, yes, pushing me aside, yes, made me feel like I didn't know what I needed to do, even though I knew what to do in that moment. And I was I'd started doing it, and then she comes as alright, someone do this, someone do that, and it was never she never called me out, it was never a what are you doing, but it just made me her behavior that Yes. Yeah, and I genuinely don't think she meant it. I think it's just her personality correct, it's just who she is. We like, and obviously in a medical event, like they need to be. She'd be the manager, she is one of our she was trying to lead, maybe correct, and she was the um nurse in charge that night. Yeah, and a medical event like that, it does need a team leader, it needs someone to take control and be like, here's what we're doing, here's what's happening. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like that needs to happen. Yeah, definitely. Um, and it will often come from someone more senior, especially more senior than me. Yeah, I'm just a regular schmegular RN, I'm not critical care trained, I'm not, yeah, yeah. Like I and I have knowledge gaps, and I have, and this is the other thing is I have a lot of anxieties and insecurities about my job and my knowledge and my knowledge gaps. Like, I didn't go to a great university, I did it through COVID, and I started uni in 2020. So we started in the you know, doing uni normally and then having to adapt and changing how we do things. I didn't go on my first nursing placement until towards the end of my second year. So I did almost two years of study before I actually got to physically be in a hospital looking after patients. Um, and then I came in, I did my first rotation in general medicine, which is fine. I think that's a great place to start as a grad because it you learn a lot. And then I came into ED.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

And so I went from Gen Med to emergency, which is a big jump. That's fine, it's a big adjustment. Anywhere to emergency really is a big adjustment unless you did something like ICU, but even then, it's still very different. Um, and I know I'm missing a lot of knowledge gaps, and I know there's a lot I don't know. I also know I'm not expected to know everything. Yes. But a part of me is like, I am a little bit of a perfectionist as well, and I want to know everything and I want to do things right. I am a people pleaser as well, so like I want to make people happy.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Sometimes like do have sometimes the culture doesn't allow for mistakes though. No, I feel like people don't, whilst they say it's always okay to have, you know, knowledge gaps and stuff, if you if you sort of present that in person, a lot of people in the field make you feel small. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

And I think that's just like a blanket nursing thing, like everywhere you go. Like, even though I will hype up where I work and say we are You're great. We they're great. And like there are lots of people that I can go to and ask my questions to, like some of the consultants, a lot of the crit care nurses I know I can go to and be like, hey, why are we doing this? Or like help explains to me. The education team, they are incredible, and a lot of them are really understanding they know my neurospicy brain, they know my anxieties, my insecurities, and they're they're well aware, and they have been supporting me through it for the two years I've been there, which is incredible. But there is just this blanket overarching thing with nursing where it's like, well, you need to know everything, and why don't you?

SPEAKER_01 53:53

And especially with ADHD, like you have really bad rejection sensitivity and terrible imposter syndrome. Terrible, terrible terrible, terrible, so so sensitive about being seen as anything less than amazing. Correct. And just like I don't like Or just adequate, you know, we we don't have to be seen as amazing. I'm you know, overstating that fact. But it's like um, yeah, I hate people thinking less of me, and I always think it as well. And I always feel like someone thinks some something about me that's not good.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Correct. And like also, like the other part of it is as I want to give patients the best care they can, and sometimes I'm but I'm looking after them, so are they getting the best care they can?

unknown 54:35

I know.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

And there's so much, should I even be in this job? Correct. Am I even good enough to be a nurse? Correct. Yes, but I know that like if I everyone is the same, surely.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Well, you'd think so. But and I do know that if I was having dangerous practice or like my knowledge wasn't up to scratch, or if there was concerns about how I'm nursing, someone would have pulled me up, I'd be told I would be on a pip, or I would, you know, people would be saying things to me, and it's never once been said. And the people that I have spoken to, like when we do our check-ins once a year, to be like, How are you going? What are you thinking? What are your career goals? All that jazz, because we do that once a year. Um someone would say something to me, or I would be pulled up in advance.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

I've never been pulled up for my practice except for my attitude and my social media.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Thankfully, neither of I do. I pulled up for my social media in my graduate, and then I stopped and I got scared. You did good. I did good.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Yeah. It's something that you you should you shouldn't go into unless it's really something, the main thing. It's your plan A. This is my plan A. Fair. Um is my plan B. Yeah. Um, I did I saw that on TikTok the other day with another nurse creator. She was like, This is my plan A, nursing is my plan B. And I was like, relate, hard relate. Fair. Um, but yeah, uh, it's it's hard because um to let go of that as well. Like I'm getting to the point where I just want to quit. Um, because I just hate it. Fair. And like, and it's not for everybody, and we are and it's because of that culture that w one person can't change.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

No.

SPEAKER_01 56:06

And I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

And then there's like we are in a bit of a healthcare crisis right now where we don't have enough staff. So we're all overworked, underpaid, being bullied in the workplace. Yes. And people are burning out. Yes. And there are so many nurses leaving bedside, and then they're like, we don't have enough nurses, but also they're not doing enough to support us. But that's that's a whole nother thing. They don't care. They don't care about us.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

No, they don't. Private hospitals, especially. Sorry, sorry, not showing. Yeah. It's true though, they allow well, they don't allow, but like it happens. They have yeah, it happens. So what's up?

SPEAKER_00 56:38

And that's just the healthcare industry as a whole. Yeah. Like there are some places that are like doing their best with what they can, but it's not it's not that healthcare service, or it's not that particular ward or environment. It is the healthcare system as a whole, as it has been for many, many years.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Well, thank you very much for the insightful and useful conversation, my darling. You're very welcome anytime.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

I wish you a wonderful trip and uh a safe return. Thank you so much. If I make it back from the States, I'll come back on and tell everyone all about it. Yes, and I want a video. You'll get a video. There'll be two, there'll be a cheer routine and a dance routine.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I wanted to share your fucking cheerleader page, but it's like a private one, is it? Probably. I will unprivate it so you can. Unprivate, go public. Come on, Queen. Your pictures are so cute.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Okay, well, unprivate it um so everyone can. I thought I I might have already done it, actually. Yeah. Um, yes. At Hey, it's K on Instagram is my cheerleading page where I will be posting all about my upcoming trip to the World Championships. Amazing. Um, follow along.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

That'll be awesome.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

My beautiful team, we are um the Adaptive Abilities Program. So um my members of our team have disabilities or impairments. Together to create cheerleading routines and there's a dance teams as well. So I'm on one of the dance teams. Um and we compete against other teams of like you know the same, so in the adaptive abilities divisions.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Um and hopefully win a gold medal. That'll be amazing. Um, manifesting a win for you. Thank you very much. Um, thank you very much for listening. You can follow our Instagram at Nurse Ratchet Podcast.

unknown 58:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

I I did put a video. Uh did you listen to my story on Insta of the woman who fucking tried to get in my car?

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

I'm not gonna tell it here. I'll tell it maybe next episode, but like go go and look at it on Instagram if you're interested. But that fucking blew up. Like wow, like blew up, blew up on Instagram, and now we've got like 500 followers on Insta when we when we only had like 100, barely.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Okay, slight. Yeah. So almost getting assaulted has done you great. I mean, yeah. Hey, almost.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

It's all meant to happen. Yeah, and I had my doors locked, so anyways, thanks to our subscribers, Laura and Jess. Um, your support means a lot to us. Someone's trying to call me. Um not right now, we're busy. Um if you would like to support the show and its continuation and for me to leave nursing, I would really appreciate and love you for the rest of my fucking life. You can subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

What'd you say? What? I'm not leaving nursing, but I still can visit the podcast. Yeah, that'd be a mess.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Yeah. Um, yes, I really want to. I'm doing an M UA course. If you want to see me do makeup, follow my Instagram at George Kate or my TikTok at George Kate.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

It stresses me out how good you are in makeup, because I am not.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I'm getting better. But again, again, imposter syndrome. I still think I look like shit.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

No, you look fucking incredible. And then I like look at what I do, and I'm like crazy. I do like dance and sheer stage makeup like more regularly than I do anything else.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

So I'm like, it's like all or nothing type makeup, isn't it? It's like really bold. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Oh God. I hate paying makeup prices. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

So fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

So fair. Up until like probably the last couple of years, I've always just bought like really shitty makeup. That's so fair. And I'm like, why doesn't it work the way it does on the YouTube?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

That's half the problem. Lighting. That's why. Lighting and filters. Um, all right. Well, thank you very much for joining us. Next time you'll probably present and you'll be telling us about your trip. Great. Love ya.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Love ya. Bye. Bye.